[applause] [inaudible conversations]: :

>> so i traveled the country for about 10 years, looking for people whose parents were slaves. we're not talking grandparents or great grandparents, but people whose mothers and fathers were born before 1865. i started the journey back in 1997 during the white house race panel, and president clinton had part of the initiative to discuss race relations, and he

had initiative to figure out how to solve race problems, and the committee of historians and scholars traveled the country, trying to figure out how to solve race relations, and one topic that kept coming up, town hall meeting after town hall meeting, was slavery. one side felt that slavery happened so long ago that we need to move on as a country, and the other side felt that slavery did not happen long ago and that you can still feel the effects and that we should try and answer or solve the problems of slavery and the questions that still exist in the country in order to move on. i was working with "world news tonight" at the time and i thought that it would be a great idea to solve and eliminate the question of race, to figure out what do we -- because it was clear one side felt one way and the other side felt another way

and it broke down evenly around race, and i thought what do we all share in common, to eliminate the conversation of white block and one thing we all had in common were mothers and fathers, so what i fell, that maybe possibly could be a hunch that there were still children of slaves out there. my great grandmother died in 1991 in kipling, north carolina. i called historians and scholars and did not want to step on their toes. i had assumed that it has been done before, ride, we're talking about the most traumatic and bar baric period in u.s. history that surely someone tried to figure out how those individuals raised their children and the historians and scholars called me crazy. i was much younger when i first started, and they would say,

listen, young lady, you are wasting your time, you're lucky to find grandchildren. and i can give you a few, but you're not going to find children, and i inherited from my dad stubbornness and i always thought i was right. i don't have thats much anymore, but i always thought i was right, so i didn't believe them, and i went ahead and called department of aging, state by state, each state tracks the aging population and i spoke to someone who spoke to someone who gave me a reference to a neighbor who knew of someone, right. so those were all the phone calls and i started from alabama and worked my way down, and as the world got around, i found about 35, 40 in the beginning. i was not smart enough to quit my job at the time and i eventually did quit my job, and traveled the country, and everyone i spoke to, except for one, had since died.

and one person actually died in october, lily otom, who i found in tennessee, we're here in tennessee in nashville, which is relevant and she passed away in october and her cousin who is mentioned in the book, mr. thompson, he drove all the way from crosstown tennessee. and he knew a lot about his cousin who passed away in october. i got a chance to see her for the second time in july, beautiful picture, so i'm happy to see you again, mr. thompson, so i -- each book talks about sort of an epiphany moment. i talk about as an african-american, here we are, black history month, i really thought i knew enough about

african-american history that when i went to interview the people, i knew what they were going to say. i expected again because no one really had focused on the children of slaves, no one had told the story of how mothers and fathers raised -- who experienced slavery, the painful history, after 1865, what their family looked like, how their family turned out and how to raise their children. i wanted to ask those questions. i came to television, to i had an idea of what, you know, in television, you think the -- you know the answers before they're even said, so i had an idea of what to expect in the interview, but what i found was completely opposite of what i expected. i expected to hear a lot of anger and hostility, because we're talking about people who survived, again, the most traumatic period in u.s. histo history, and with no traditional understanding of what a family

is -- what we see today, and what i found -- so i thought that because i did not know what traditional family looked like, because they survived this painful experience, that naturally, right, modern interpretation, naturally that there would be remnants of that in their children, and i looked for it, expected it, didn't find it. that the parents generally carried an immigrant mental. that they generally believed, it's profound, think about it, you can go through everything you went through, they generally believed that that was the worst was behind them, that i am going to dedicate myself to rebuilding of what was to be a new america, and they gave their hopes and dreams to their children. and it appeared in diaries, and it appeared in interviews, like

i said, i let go of the idea a i thought was right but in the beginning, each interview i had, i really questioned that attitude. and i questioned the idea of being big. and one person that i have in the chapter and i'll read from that, was a guy named walter scott. the chapter of the title is called "one life to live," and -- because i used to watch soap operas with him, while he was on oxygen in prospect, virginia, and you -- we briefly talked about this. i found him through a baptist church in new york, which is where i'm from, and his niece passed me a note in the pew that said, so the reverend had made

an appeal. >> an appeal. >> right, an appeal for me, and the niece passed me a note in the pew, and said, you know, i have someone in prospect, virginia, that would be great, and i did not again drop everything to see her, but when i did, i was blown away by the interview. i had spoken to him -- well, i spoke to the niece and i had prepared greatly, we balked this over dinner last night, i prepared greatly for it. you know, i read, history books, reparations, national apology was big during that time, with reverend conyers in the senate, front page, "newsweek," slavery, and i prepared at barnes & nob noble, i didn't have money because i quit my job, i sat in barnes & noble and read all the

history books to get an idea of what to expect in the interview. >> this is the very first person you contacts, but not the very first person you interviewed, but at this time as a recap from chapter one, your very first interview leads you to california, to give a back story on that. >> right. so the very first person i interviewed was a guy named chris wright, he was a lawyer in california, i found him from a press release from his alma mater, university he southern california, where he had donated $2 million and he was the second millionaire in his family, his father was born a slave in louisiana, and i realized over the course of my journey, we joke about this, i realized that i became a lot like my father, right, so i thought that who i was was based on my own experience, that i

was, you know, this person, you know, who traveled the world, who has this great education and i evolved into someone because of me, and as i watched my father throughout the course of 10 years, i realized i was a lot like him, so -- which was very disturbing, because i'm thinking i'm in control of who i am, right, so chris wright, the very first interview -- well, serious interview, i spent two months with him in california, and he was a millionaire, and i set him up, to kind of see i was a lot like my father, what was a self-made millionaire, how is a self-made millionaire a lot like his and you're right, this goes to the epiphany moment that i talked about, how i expected to hear something in the interviews but i got something completely different and with him, i was -- it led me to a story of social -- how freed slaves as early as 1867 were part of the

social and political momentum to be involved in the united states, to want to run for office, to want to -- you know, with president obama, we talk about the lines of harlem and atlanta were around the corners and like for an hour or two hours. well, in mississippi, where majority of the population was black, 1867, there were 97% of the voting -- black voting population was registered to vote. so you can imagine what those lines look like in a state where the majority of the population was black. so in many ways, this country has come full circle, and president obama talks about how we can believe in our best selves and how we can challenge the country and our neighbors to want to be the best we can be. well, freed slaves also believe that, and they tell that to their children. but the -- so there's epiphany

moments. each chapter has that where we talked about that and the second chapter was -- >> which is what leads us back to mr. scott. >> yes. so i found mr. scott, and again, through his niece katherine, w who -- and i met him for the first time in virginia in a church, and -- the format of the meeting was not set in stone, but i was planning to start current and work backwards to the civil rights movement and then spend the rest of the time on his parents lives as slaves. the first question went something like a lot of people today are calling for reparations for slavery. do you think reparations are a good idea i asked? i can't gather that, mr. scott answered. i rewarded the question. maybe he didn't understand what i was asking. do you think you should be given money because your parents were slaves, i asked? they made a lot of money off of

them, they didn't get paddy, i gather it would be something they should do. so you knew your parents were slaves. yes, we knew. did they talk about what happened during the time? no response. i tried to coax something out of him, anything. did they pick tobacco or cotton, to which he simply replied, chewing tobacco. his attention was no longer focused on my attention but on the sound of the black rubber knob on the bottom of the cane as it passed between his shoes, hitting soles, right left, left right. i asked, do you think your parents should have been told i'm sorry they were slaves? it would be a nice thing to do, he answered. conversation was slow. while i was asking him yes or no questions, i left enough of a pause in between for him to elaborate. at one point i was talking so slowly, that when i finally completed a sentence, i forgot what the question was. after about 30 minutes of this back and forth, my excitement for the day had faded.

replaced were the fear he was too old to remember much about anything. then there were larger questions i had to ask myself. would everyone incompetent -- i interviewed have a faded memory? most would likely fall in the age range of mr. scott, 100 and orlando. no matter what the age, i thought if i sat with him long enough, the person would remember something. i guess i was wrong. i turned the tape recorder over, picked up my pocketbook from under the table and i was ready to go. at that time, katherine, who was down from new york for the interview, came in. she asked him, what did you guys talk about? she hooked at my notebook or at my pocketbook and figured out i was ready to go and kind of was questioning that and asked, what did you guys talk about, uncle walter? she brushed a piece of lint off his shoulder as she made small talk while digging into her bag. did you tell her about how grandma wanted you guys to be

big people? she wanted her kids to be what, i questioned katherine, puzzled, overweight, very, very naive. i understood what big meant, but i didn't think it would come from a parent. his father was a slave in 1838, actually was volunteered to fight in the confederacy by his owner. his mom was born in 1851, so they both understood what it meant to be a slave and to hear katherine refer to the title big, i knew what it meant, right, but i didn't expect to hear it from her. and he went on,, grandma, she went on to say, grandma alice used to say, you had to be somebody, right, uncle walter. he turned from looking at katherine to looking at me. but she kin. you had to go to school, be intelligent, marry somebody intelligent, right? mr. scott nodded in her

direction. the cool air from the window unit now no longer circulated around the room. i asked mr. scott, you didn't tell me that about your parents, mr. scott. i put my bag back down on the floor and we both looked at him. you didn't ask, young lady. you wanted to know if they were slaves. he didn't look in my direction until the last word, and then only because he was turning his hips toward me in order to get his legs out from under the table to go into the church. katherine stood behind him as i started to push on the table to get out. i smiled. this guy was holding out on me. here i was thinking he didn't understand the question, when really, he didn't want to answer them. they have awkwardly leading and overly predictable. i only wanted to know if his patients were slaves. he was right and i was embarrassed. >> one of the first things you came across specifically with him is you were asking the wrong questions. >> right. and i found this interview in

the beginning, that i was the only person that thought it was a big deal that a parent wags born before 1865. i was asking in the beginning about who are your parents, as slaves, when really, they only knew them as mother and father, so i had to readjust my thinking with that and he was the first person that kind of put me in check with that, because he was very protective of his parents and again, i only wanted to know them as slaves, because we have an idea of slavery, and when we say the word slaves and slavery, we think of cotton picking, the south, tobacco, but we don't think of mothers and fathers, husbands and wives and we don't think of family and that was how i had to readjust my thinking, because that's how they thought, the parents. they didn't think of the parents the way the country thought of their parents and the way i thought of their parents, so that was part -- he was the

first interview where i adjusted myself with that. >> ok. on page 45, you start actually getting deep into the interview. >> oh, yeah. >> gentleman but first of all, one thing i want to say on her journey, you eat a lot. on page 44, but you had an epiphany at one of those restaurants at page 44. >> yes, i had been trying for 10 years to get back to my college weight, but i am not successful, i ate a lot on my journey, i'm embarrassed to say. >> but this is an epiphany moment for you? >> right. right. so i'll just start reading. i stopped at shoney's for the all you can eat breakfast buffet before getting on the highway forward for -- for the eight hour drive back to brooklyn where i had to go to work the next morning. that was the moment i knew i had to cheese. mr. scott really kind of led me

to believe that wow, i'm really on to something, i entered the conversation talking about reparations and national policy but i left the conversation thinking wow, your parents are not like my parents and why in the world don't i know this story? why in the world do i approach you with the history story, and not as a family story? so that was the moment i knew i had to choose, either i was going to continue to work full time and travel only on the weekend or quit in order to find -- interview people full time. there was no way i could do both, so with money in the bank, -- with no money in the bank, i chose to throw caution to the wind. i said to grace over a plate of french toast, bacon, grits, and a rerefill of sweet tea, adding an extra thank you for katherine's small talk, if she wasn't there, i never would have known i was asking the wrong questions. yes, mr. scott's parents were slaves, but the way katherine and mr. scott spoke about his

mother and father made them sound the same as my parents, or my friends' parents. study hard, get an education, where is post-traumatic stress disorder syndrome. the debilitating depression and humiliation. the questions i wanted to ask, simply ignoring the fact that mr. scott didn't care about reparations or a national apology or any of the history book jargon. he only wanted to talk about his parents as mothers and fathers. >> wow. was that something you found through all the people you interviewed? >> yeah. the -- again, so i am traveling the country and i am talking to people about their parents born in 1865, and i was the only person that really believed it was important.

they truly just saw them as mom and dad, and -- >> when it came to like reparations, an apology, what was their view on that? >> well, a lot of people were older, over 100 years old, so a lot weren't in tune to the news station, so they believed basic that it would be nice, like mr. scott said, it would be nice, but they didn't know to what extent as the country was talking about. they didn't know to what extent. the larger part was the idea of how people wanted to raise their children. that was really the conversation that they wanted to focus on, not necessarily reparations and a national apology, because they really wanted to understand the idea of what happened to us in raising families. in the chapter with mr. hood, i -- so what i discovered, we talked about this, what i discovered was that there was a

fork in the road, that after the civil war, freed slaves had a choice, and their choice was to choose their experience and the painful, traumatic background as slaves, what they went through, or they could choose love. and the people i found chose love. they chose to make sure that they could raise good family, so good is a loaded term, but we all understand what it looks like. and what it feels like, right. >> as a matter of fact, you kind of reach into that when you're talking about you've been setting -- even setting offer on the journey, when your grandmother was an aunt, who passed away and you were like, well, we're the exception to the rule when you find out they were

that chose to slavery, our family is pretty normal. >> yeah. so in the book, i talk about -- i evolve in the book, not only in asking the question through the interview and understanding my own family, and i felt i could not ask personal questions of the people without me asking personal questions of myself and one of the reasons i started asking the question how slaves raised their children, because i felt my family was an exception, right. i felt my family was able to raise us with unconditional love, and that we were the exception to the rule. but what i discovered was that freed slaves -- people i interviewed, they too were

raised with unconditional of love, which made me realize we focus so much as a country on the horrors that were experienced during slavery, that we never really talk about the strength and the courage and the resiliency that allowed freed slaves to love and beloved and to give it to their children and it was the tip of the iceberg. here i am thinking i'm the exception to the rule, but really, it was the rule, right. >> paradigm shift. >> yeah. exactly. >> now when you meet mr. scott again, this time not in the church, but at the nursing home, what is he doing? >> right. mr. scott, again, i talked with mr. scott because he was a great interview. i spent most of my time with him. when i first saw him, he was in the church, he was walking with a cane. the second time i found him, he was on oxygen and we watched

"one life to live," and the third time i saw him, he was bedridden and telling me to turn up the baseball game. on television, right. so it really goes to the idea that it's a dying generation, and with i found them, they were close to it. and when i found them, they -- a lot of them died a year after i left, and mr. hood -- >> do you want to talk about that now? >> yeah. mr. hood, he stopped talking literally two days after i left, and died two days later. mr. hood, he was my very last interview for the book. >> in fact, let's read that part. that's beautiful. >> he was my very last interview for the book. and -- >> but you didn't know he was

going to be your last, because you thought mr. william dunn lap was going to be our last, so how did you find mr. hood? >> yes. so i had been -- just got back from california, and i was on a dry spell, and i had not found anyone for about four or five months, i had been doing it for 10 years at this points, and i was tired. i was spending time with this generation, and i was also watching my dad die at the same time. and i was exhausted. my credit card was full, i had no more money to go, i no longer wanted to to be part of this journey. so i came back from california, mr. dunlap and i found a piece of notebook if the back of my drawer and i looked at it and i saw that i had missed one person, that there was someone named hurley hood in north carolina, that i had decided to move on with my life and did not want to call but there was a

voice in my head that said call, call, call, and i called, and spoke to his daughter, and made arrangements to fly down within the week, and i found him about -- the doctor, he had been dying of prostate cancer, right, and i didn't know at the time his daughter juanita was -- met me at the front steps and she said, i'm happy to meet you, i didn't know this, you know, my dad was given three weeks to six months to live, and you are meeting him five days short of that six months and i was telling him to hold on until you got here. >> wow. >> yeah. yeah. and -- so when i -- so when i met him, his -- the nurse is upstairs with him, and i was

chit-chatting with juanita down stairs for about 10, 15 minutes and then the nurse came down stairs to let juanita know her father was ready. we went upstairs. after being in and out of homes for all these years, this was it, my last conversation. understanding more about history on the road than i ever did in the classroom, i jailed -- i followed juanita to mr. hood's room, wondering what am i going to learn today. mr. hood, lying in bed with "sesame street" pillow cases and sheets tucked under his shoulder, turned his head to the door. remember the lady i was telling you about, juanita asked her father as she walked into the room. i stood in the doorway. usually i'm not uncomfortable walking into a person's bedroom, but this was the closest to death i had come. i felt awkward. knowing he was likely going to die in this room made me more respectful of his space. juanita waved me in and moved to the side so her father could see

who you was. still i waited for mr. hood to say it was ok. come in and sit down, said mr. hood. his voice was soft and fading. without moving his head, his eyes pointed to a care between the wall in between the mirrored dresser by the door. when i grabbed it, his highs trailed to the -- eyes trailed to the side of the bed where i pulled the chair in front of big bird and cookie monster. he looked tired. when he stopped sighting me with his eyes, they drooped half shut. his jaw sat like a sad clown. from the neck down, he was skin and bones. you could see that his legs under the sheets were con torted into slightly -- mr. hood had taken his arms from underneath the sheets and placed it it on top with his palm face down. i dropped the pocketbook off my shoulder, and curled my hand around his fingers. happy to meet you, mr. hood.

i stood there frozen at a loss for words. i was looking at him and he was looking at me. i asked if he wanted the water that juanita said she would bring him and he said he would wait for juanita. there was a calmness and peace in the room that i've heard surrounds people when they were dying. when i stopped trying to think of something to say, i became content to just sit there in it. skipping the formal introduction as to why i was there, i blurted out a comment that was a continuation of a conversation juanita and i had down stairs. i was talking to your daughter, mr. hood and she said there are 15 of you guys. they sure don't make families like that anymore. no, they don't do that anymore, he said. i was about to say something else, when he kept going. five boys and 10 girls. i again thought he'd finished his thought because his voice tapered off. but he kept on going. i was always crazy about my

sisters. last 15 minutes in the room were mr. hood were challenging. he kept falling in and out of sleep every few minutes, pausing after words to catch his breath. from time to time he would hiccup and the sheets under his chest would jerk up and down. when he did that, i tried to stop the interview, because i felt i was draining him, but he was always say, keep going. and mr. hood, like i said, he paused, but when he talks about his family and talked about his sisters, he loved his sisters. his sisters actually -- his sisters thought he wanted to be a girl he hung around them so much, and -- but there was a joy in his eyes that was actually beautiful. when he was fading in and out, he would look at me. when he talked about his sisters, he would look in the air as if he could see them in the air. it was beautiful to watch. but -- and we also talked about

how the family, his mother and father, his father was born a slave in south carolina, i said i just got back from north carolina and i called it lancaster south carolina, but i was corrected in saying it was lancaster, south carolina. but he talked about how they're very close growing up, and how the mother and -- how the mother really wanted them to be a close knit family. his father was a slave in south carolina, his father actually was one of seven brothers and a sister, and they were all sold when he was 12, and mr. hood knew about his father as a slave, only because one of his uncles, a twin, had a different last name and mr. hood asked him father one day, why does your twin have a different last name than you and the father discussed that when they were

12, they were sold and each brother was sold to a different owner. there were hoods, clintons, thunderbirds and hams. they were never able to find the sister. >> one of the things too that you noted is that when, after slavery, they reconnect, which speaks to the importance of family. tell us about the mattress. >> so mr. hood told the story about how his -- so mr. hood lived on a plantation, didn't know the owner's first name, only knew him as the boss man. mr. hood's father only knew him as the boss man and the boss man, after the war was over, told the slaves that you can't go anywhere. and if you try to go anywhere, i'm going to kill you. so the brothers tried their hardest to find everyone after they were freed. they were separated in different states, north carolina and south

carolina and they worked after the civil war to find each other. they were not successful in finding the sister, but they found all the boys and they literally walked plantation to plantation to collect the family. beautiful. and the last one was reverend john hood, mr. hood's father. and because he was afraid to escape, they had to wheel on the back of a wagon a mattress. they opened the mattress, put mr. hood's father in and sewed it back up and they left, and mr. hood, until he was a teenager, was always afraid to go back to south carolina because he was afraid the boss man was looking for him, right. which goes to, again, there are these epiphany moments,s where we talk about how slavery is the root cause of the breakdown in the black family, right? but everything -- i looked for it. i looked for it, i expected it,

i asked questions based on that. and every interview led me into a completely different direction. and one story, which the title of the book "sugar of the crop" where i talk about where -- i asked mr. hood the question of, why were you guys so close? and he -- they were sore close because they really had -- not only did his father and mother want to provide a home that they can call their own, but at the really fought fate in order to keep them together, and -- can i read from that? >> yes. >> so juanita was mr. hood's daughter, when juanita came back upstairs tanned had given mr. hood a sip of water, and mr. hood then told the story of how his mother defied the odds to save juanita's life when she was born. the doctor didn't think juanita

was going to make it through the night, because they was premature, weighing just 1 pound 4 ounces. mr. hood remembered that his -- quote, my wife was crying, she couldn't do anything, so my mother took juanita from the doctor, led her down her apron pocket and went into the kitchen. his mom got a steak from the ice box, these are people, now we have the premature box in the hospitals, but how in the world did they know how it to take care of a premie like this. the mom got a steak knife, put it in a jar and polled it on top of the stove to get blood from the meat. that's what she fed her to build her up. she used only a medicine dropper, because juanita could not take more than three ar four drops at a time. his mother kept juanita until she gained weight. when she was busy during the day, she put her granddaughter in her apron pocket or in a shoe

box on the table. juanita was the favorite in the family because she was the only girl. mr. hood's father, reverend john, was crazy about her. he'd say, "that's my sugar, i want to keep her." when her brothers would play fight and argue, daddy would always tell them, why don't you be sweet like juanita. after he said that, all of his friends started calling her sugar. what this should mean, i asked? it was short for suing hard. he would say she was the sugar of the crop, because she was the sweetest out of the whole family. >> beautiful. >> and that's kind of why i chose the title, "sugar of the crop," again, talk about the fork in the road, where there is a choice. either you can give your experiences of slavery to your children, or you can choose the direct opposite and you can raise them with love. and the first generation of freed blacks, the whole family chose love.

>> i'm going to cry. one quick question, we do see throughout the story that the women had a role to play. now, most of the guys that you highlighted, that you talked to, there was one woman that you actually had a chance to sit down with as well. >> which one are you talking about? >> as a matter of fact of course she went with you, do you remember -- >> oh. >> the church hat on. >> yes. yes. >> because most of the people that you actually found were men, but she was one of the few women. >> i'm not sure why that's the case, but yeah. yeah. mrs. wilson, both her parents were slaves. her father fought in the union army in kentucky. i found her in -- i'll give you a back story. i have found her in may vim, kentucky, and again it's because tears no database of what happened to freed slaves after they're freed, i really had to create my own and i had made all these phone calls a state by state, speaking to black

churches and nursing homes and senior centers, and i found her in an e-mail. her neighbor lived in mayfield, kentucky, emailed me and said i have someone you may want to meet. i was in kentucky interviewing someone else and i had been there for two months and i was read difficult to go, but -- ready to go, but again, i felt, so i jokingly said that 10 years, all of my prime years, right. >> her 20's. >> i joke that if i -- in the beginning, i was not willing to give up 10 years, right. it was supposed to last a year and a half, but as i slowly started interviewing people, i realized if i didn't do it, it wouldn't be done, so i again said, ok, i will follow up on the e-mails. so ginny wilson, i met her in mayfield, kentucky and her mother actually was a care key

indian. she was -- cherokee indian. her mother was auctioned in the same town her father was auctioned, and each chapter has an epiphany moment, where again, everything i thought i knew was wrong and ms. wilson talked about how her father knew of other slaves that are being bred. you heard the story about breeding. the slaves were not auctioned to be sold to plantations but passed out to other plantations to breed with women who were of child bearing age and i asked alice, again, because at this points, i'm having my discussion of it's all about family, it's not about slaves, it's about family and i'm thinking, gosh, my father would be very protective of personal stuff like that. why did your father tell you that, right? so -- and she came back and said, well, my dad didn't tell me, i overheard it.

>> wow. >> and which led to a larger conversation about why did you have to hear it, why didn't you know the details of slavery? and we got into a conversation about how -- this goes back to the anger and hostility and why this is the sweetest generation because they chose love, that slaves talked to -- talked to their cousins, people of their own age, about slavery, but did not talk to the children, because they did not want -- this came from the interview. i thought that the reason why slaves did not talk about their experiences was because they were ashamed or embarrassed, right? victimology de. but she was saying, my parents didn't want me to know because they knew i'd be angry, and they knew that i would not want to work, and people in small towns

were connected, her parents wanted her to define her own reality. that if they told her the experience of what she had been through, who wouldn't be angry, right? so again, you're putting aside the idea of slavery and you're only talking to them as mothers and fathers, and -- so that was my epiphany moment with alice. >> wow. beautiful. >> ms. wilson. >> but alice, which is one of the mothers who actually had the same kind of love and was very outspoken and had a little spit fire personality, tell us about the gillams, master and mr. gillam. >> yeah. >> alice, because of course, she had been severely beaten, like the time her mother said don't go out and get the water because it was snowing and mr. gillam said no, go out anyway and take your clothes off and ruin the snow and years later she got him

back. >> alice gilliam is the mother of walter scott, the person who told mr. scott in the beginning in the church to be a big person, and after the war -- after the civil war, alice, his mom, was told to go out and get a chair from the barn. and when she went to get a chair from the barn, she spoke to -- she was still living on the plantation, but she was really newly freed from, and when she went out to get a chair from the barn, she told the mistress that mr. gilliam, her owner was gilliam, that mr. gilliam wants a chair and the previous owner, right, said what do you mean, mr. gilliam, it's master gilliam and she was like, no, it's mr. gilliam wants it, so she was very adamant and the idea like i'm free, i no longer have to call him master, and the family recounted that story, i heard that story at least six or seven

times in like three days, because the family kind of owned that. you know, it became sort of a symbol of who they were as a family. you know, we are -- we are free, we are going to take advantage of everything that the free world offers us. i mean, we know that what america promised and what america turned out to be after destruction were two different things, but the family, it's a beautiful story. that's the one thing, every single -- mr. walter scott has like 10 or 15 nieces and great, great and they all told that story. have you heard the story? let me tell it to you again. i got that repeatedly, but after a while, it's beautiful to see it, because they all carried that same sentiment, that she had in saying, i'm no longer calling you master, i'm calling you mister. they kind of owned that story, so it was beautiful. >> another beautiful thing that really came out as we talked about this was the importance of

education, which was very amazing, like going back to at the very beginning of the book, and we're talking about mr. wright and how his father was literally, he kept -- literate, he kept a journal and how much education, i think it was within one year the schools went from 300 to like 1300. they built schools immediately after slavery and most of them were college educated within 10 years, which was amazing, that they literally came off plantations with like education as number one and how many schools they built, which was beautiful. >> as far as 1866 throughout the south, there were more blacks enrolled in schools than whites, and in louisiana, after the bureau had set up schools and was building schools, 1866, but there's a points where the money ran out but instead of stopping building, the freed slaves started building on their own,

and there were articles talking about how abolitionists from the north came down and they were just amazed at the rate at which they were being built with no funding from anyone but themselves, so you're right, there's a journal, mr. wright, the millionaire, i -- within like 30 minutes of the interview gave me this diary and talked about how i thought it was his diary, but it turned out it was his father's diary and people were using these diaries as if they were something they purchased from the book stores. the diaries were written in the late 19th century. his father wrote in the diary that he wanted to be a doctor. he wanted to be a doctor and his teacher wanted him to be a doctor. >> this is in the reconstruction period. >> yes, this is during the

second reconstruction and you all i knew going into the interview was that african-americans were share croppers. share croppers because of the black codes and other legal -- laws that were created for them to be share croppers, but did not think that there was this idea during second reconstruction, when the preacher was limitless, right, that they wanted to be more. >> and interesting talking about the black codes, in that time when so many african-americans were being elected to, you know, state, senate, things of that nature, they overturned those codes, but of course we know the backlash and you had a very interesting thing, when you were reading the older father's journal, how much hope he had, but you knew his future, and that was like, oh, it's like he was anticipating so much, but of course, you knew the future of his history. which what's -- >> it's sad, and it's knots something you'd think of. there was no reference to when

that period was in the journal, but like i said, there was so much hope for -- teachers wanted him to be one, he wanted to be one, his parents were going to send him to medical school to be one and it was that -- in a lot of states it was different, but from 1867 to 1877 during reconstruction, where there was this social and political momentum that has been unparalleled, that we as a country and as an african-american community, we have never seen it since and to think that it came from the generation of freed slaves. we have never seen such commitment to the country at the rate we saw it back then. again, president obama, with the elections in the line, we thought that, you know, now there is this new revitalization in the community and there's this new commitment to want to

participate in the community. well, then it was to come full circle, because that is where we were in 1865. >> wow. now how does this change the paradigm of so much of what we've learned you know, about african-american people socially? no excuses. >> well -- or was that kind of like -- because i know you kind of like asked those questions, how it related to the way they saw things and the way they see us behaving now, what was like the resounding thought process they had about where we had come to? >> like the idea of what happened. >> yeah. >> i don't think i am -- that's a good question. i think it's the million dollar question. how can we go from being big to settling. and i think it's a question, that i don't think i was able to answer in interviews. i focus on really, that one generation, raised by freed

slaves, but i have my own interpretations of it. i think that somewhere along the line, we lost the idea of self-sacrifice as parents, and it sounds so cliche and -- but it really is true. the idea that when you -- when they had children, when the freed slaves had their children, they no longer want to live their lives. they put their children first, right? there was a television commercial about that, but they put their children first, and they didn't have to have -- they didn't have to have a workshop, they didn't have to be taught it, they didn't have to attend any classes, even though they had been auctioned away from their mother and father, separated from their family, traumatized. >> some sexually. >> right. with their experience.

they did not have to be taught how to raise a good family and i think somewhere along the line, we as a community, and as a country, we don't necessarily put unconditional love first. i have to admit, i will leave the -- the answer to the million dollar question to the scholars and historians, but i do think that was -- that i think is a little bit of what i discovered just in the interviews from what i did over the 10 years. >> now speaking about your 10-year journey and yes, i have to go there, to make this personal, because the entire time you're researching someone else's history, you are having your own moments with your own family and your own father, who shaped you. please, ok, let's go to it. i'm getting her to read a particular chapter in the book that says makes her cry. >> she caught me off guard like five minutes before we sat down. i completely -- i cried like a little girl and i was upset.

my dad, bless his heart, my dad, he was sick, he had old factory neuroblastoma, which is a rare form of cancer that goes from your nose to your mouth and nobody knows what causes it and as a result never knew how to cure it. he had it ironically -- not high ronically, but he had it for -- not high ronically, but he had it for 20 years and he had it long enough to raise us. i have three sisters and a brother. and this chapter, which i completely did not want to go to, but again, i could not tell the story of the people without -- the people i was interviewing, asking them to talk about their own family without me talking about my own. >> because actually you found out as he comes to his close, he actually had done the same journey at the age of 25 when he was a boy. he had interviewed a family

member and you started it at 26. how much like your father were you? >> and i had no idea about this. my dad, he stopped talking about -- a year before he died, and one of the last things he did was give me this tape, and i had done my interviews at this time. i was almost finished with my interviews and i had traveled the country thinking that my story was mine, right. so here i am thinking i have this grandiose idea of tracking down these children of slaves and my dad gives me this tape and he had interviewed his grandfather and he had interviewed the grandfather in the same way i interviewed the people who i spoke to, not necessarily about slavery, but tell if he about how -- how did you meet grandma, and he asked questions and it's so beautiful. in the chapter, he -- well, it's in the chapter, but in the tape, he talked about how my dad asked

him the question of what did you think when you first saw grandma and he called them mom and pop them, though they were his grandmother and grandfather and he said papa said when i saw her she was like soup if my eye and i was hard to satisfy. it was so beautiful. :

>> so i got a call from juanita, and i was running out the door to see -- that wasn't the time when my dad, his last day, but my dad was in and out of the hospital very frequently. and he had about 10 surgeries, nine rounds of chemo and radiation. he was a big man and tried to hold on i think so that he could see us grow up. so one time when i was headed out the door, i was kind of rushing juanita off the phone and she kind of sad i want to let you know that my father, he loved talking to you and about his black cadillac. his black cadillac that, you know, he pause after every conversation, he fell asleep in and out. when he talked about his family and a black cadillac, it was smooth, right? so she talked about how he loved talking to me and he literally stopped talking to days after i left.

he couldn't talk anymore and then died a few days later. but what is the chapter you are looking at? >> you are their. >> so you have to excuse me -- if i go there, but so my dad, it's kind of beautiful to kind of think about what my dad, he was home and he literally and blessed people. he was home when he died. in and out of the hospital but he died at home. he had a trick tube so he could no longer talk. he had a trade to. the trick had come out. we had come downstairs. when you have a too big you can't eat, and he had a feeding tube. so i was downstairs with a blender trying to make food because he was given like a concoction of chemicals through his feeding tube. i was kind of like no, dad, you are from the south you need to have some kind of greens. you need to have, you know,

liquefied some chicken or something, you know. so i'm downstairs. i charge this really industry like a blender. so i'm downstairs, and the trach comes out. no one knows. when we all go upstairs, me and my mom, his lips are blue. the ambulance came, and they did -- they tried to resuscitate him, but he was gone. and they stop doing it in the hand is as they're going -- as they were leaving to go to the hospital. and i've not -- i'm aggressive on knocking on the door saying you need to start, you know. so somewhere, beautiful,

somewhere between when he left the house in the ambulance and when he got to the hospital, he came back. and -- i knew this would happen. and the nurses and the anger strivers said they had never seen that before, but he came back. so we were in the hospital room for about a couple of days, and then there was time for him to finally go. and i think he came back because he wanted to say goodbye. he didn't want a good bike to be in england, you know. and again, this goes to the id idea, you know, here i am interviewing everyone else's family and my dad is dying. and i completely -- i completely needed to kind of have that emotion in the book. and you see it throughout the book the idea of the steps leading up to this time.

and so this is a day when he leaves. we are in the hospital room. my mom is holding one hand. i am holding the other. and my older sister, she went back to new york because at this point we thought he was stable, right? and my younger sister, she is in the back on the heater because it's cold, and she is lying on -- it's like 3:00 in the morning so we are all tired. we are all asleep. so we're all asleep. the room was quiet, except for the beep of the respirator that was helping him breathe. and then suddenly my heart stopped as if someone had hit me from behind and knocked the wind out of me. stop it, to my sister i said when i put my head back on the bed. i thought she had gotten up by the respirator and was kind of like playing with me. when she didn't say anything i

turned around and saw that she hadn't moved. she was sound asleep near the window. i went back to sleep. a few seconds later it happened again. i couldn't catch my breath. for an instant it felt as if my heart was physically being squeezed from the inside of my chest. when it stopped, something told me to look at the respirator. as soon as my eyes were fixed on the machine, it immediately flashed from a to c. and if you have anybody in the hospital you know that when it's on a, you are breeding. and when it is on see, the respirator is reading for you. which meant that had stopped breathing on his own. i will climb up and then i walked over to my sister and chapter on the shoulder. i think this is it. i think is going. we should say goodbye. okay. so my sisters and i, and again, i think it is a testament to my dad. my sisters and i., and we had stopped us afterwards and asked

questions, this is a. i am so embarrassed by this. i lived for 10 years in my apartment writing the story, and i am -- i am not used to reading this part. and i told righted to read this part, but anyway. but i do appreciate the idea of family. so anyway, my sisters and i both spoke at the funeral. and the night before, i absolutely had neu get what i wanted to say. and i went to bed with a pen and pad, because -- and i was crying like a baby because i missed him so much. i don't remember my dream, but i remember waking up to a scribble on a piece of paper. i was listening to a radio station and stevie wonder said that, was asked a question of how songs, awesome album, the interviewer asked the question

about where your words come from. and he said you know, i don't know. they just come to me. and they come to me at night, right? so what i started to do is i started to think maybe i could be as great, great words. and i used to go to bed with a pen and pad. so i tried to figure out what to write preparing for my dad's funeral, where my sister and i both spoke. i don't remember my dream. i went to bed with his pen and pad. i don't remember my dream but a rebel waking up to scribble on a piece of paper that read under the cover page that i read under the covers the next morning. and this is what it said. he gave us everything we ever wanted, and more than we ever needed, but he never spoiled us. so that was what i talked about in the funeral the next day. but again, i really thought that

my parents, because they gave us unconditional love, that we were exceptions to the rule that they gave us what we wanted, they gave us what we needed, but they kept us in line because they kept us in line to tell us that, you know, i'm giving you this so you can move it forward. that you are living for the future generations, not just for your generation. so yeah, that's it. so we are done. [laughter] >> let's give it up to sana. [applause] >> at this time we will give you an opportunity for q&a. we do have one of the representatives, mike's also available on the site. stepped quickly to the isles to ask your questions.

>> first, i would like to congratulate you on the success of your book. you spoke of the being in a community of hope after slavery, that you found that the dissenters of slavery had, and they had this idea that they could succeed, they want to impregnate that in their children. would you say that the campaign of terror from the ku klux klan, the white citizens council, enforced by the segregation laws and law enforcement perpetuated these ideas, reinforced by the hollywood roles such as montana molan? do you think that this brought

back a sort of mental slavery on that next generation that we are dealing with now to this point? >> yes. i should have you appear. and to answer the question of what happened. completely agree. so the reason why it ended was because the former masters did not believe, could not believe that we thought we were better than our segregation. that we actually had the nerve to become equals, right? that was the reason segregation construction and. we were taking advantage of all the opportunities and we no longer were slaves. and i think what happened, which is fascinating, that there was -- our history has been eaten out of us. i am literally in the sense it has been destroyed.

there was a georgian lawmaker that was quoted as saying he wanted to destroy any record of african-american -- of freed slaves in the legislature because they had the nerve to be our colleagues. so at a certain point in certain states you know longer have records of freed slaves as lawmakers. going to go to the state senate in mississippi, or the state senate in louisiana or georgia, the records are gone after a certain period of time. and once replaced is the story of us as sharecroppers, that we had defeatist attitude, that we didn't want any better. we could not achieve any better, which is why, you know, in the 1880s all of us were sharecroppers. it wasn't because of that. it was because laws were created so that that was all we could

do. so i completely agree. overtime we have allowed the history to be beaten out of us. and we focus so much on the, like i said, on the course that they experienced here because that too needs to be recorded. but we have never focused the idea of how strong, how the soles were stronger than we expected. the soles of slaves were stronger. their strength was stronger than we give them credit for. we haven't documented that and because we haven't documented that, we have in its place, you know, there is a postmaster slave syndrome. slaves were traumatized by their experience which led to where we are today. interestingly enough i went to interview in kentucky to a woman who talked about her father

chose not to beat her children, her and her siblings because he was beaten as a child. completely different, opposite of what we know today. today, comedians laugh that because we are beating a dead beat as slaves is that's all we know. and that is why we beat our children. beat is a loaded word but that is why we used the switch. but the reality, and and my thoughts are the same thing. that his father, who called his wife soup, poppa didn't beat because he was beaten. and anytime they got in trouble they would know to run to him because he would protect them from mama. all the grandkids knew to run to him because he would not beat his children because he would not do that. you're completely right. we have allowed the store to become different than what it is.

>> you have a generation, to laws of hope of any government of being an element of protection, and as a result they turn inward to a self-destructive or they want to self police themselves, but in a self-destruction mode, and now we are trying to evolve out of that, you know, as we become more educated. >> definitely that's one reason why truth has to be told incompletion. when you don't know the truth, you can live by the light. and i believe truly that if we understand when they came out of their shackles, that they were actually free in their spirit, and then they could believe in the impossible. but when you become enslaved in your mind, they're in the battle has already been one. >> question? >> yes. sana, you talked about in the beginning of your research how your assumptions, you walk in

believing or thinking you knew one thing. could you share more about those assumptions have changed and do you plan to write a follow-up book? >> oh, yes. i -- honestly, the second question first. i spent 10 years on this book and it is a scary thing. it is very, very scary because you start entering your own thoughts. and people in the outside world, when you go out to restaurants, think you are crazy. so i will have to get back to you on that. i'd need to live in the real world for a little bit, and leave my priority which i am glad i am happy in memphis. this is very lethargic for me to tell the stories about the journey. the idea that i thought slaves

didn't talk about their experience, right, i knew growing up that african-american genealogy tree is not completed where you think it would be completed with names and dates and locations. because of slaves didn't talk about it because they were -- >> ashamed. >> exactly. what i discovered as they talked about, just not to their own kids. i mentioned the idea that, you know, they did not want their children to grow up with the anger, and knew that would happen. as parents, you know, they knew it even though they weren't taught it. they themselves didn't experience it, but they knew it. i questioned, and this was a big one, i questioned the posttraumatic slave syndrome. the idea that slaves were, thais abide their experience, that they weren't able to move on. i expected it, looked for, ask

questions, doubted it when i didn't get it but kept getting interview after interview. what i did discover, and i kind of cooling this as my own made-up term, posttraumatic master syndrome. the idea that it wasn't slaves that could move on from slavery, but it was the master. and that the master put laws, codes, torture in place so that we could move on. >> correct. it is like a bad relationship. >> just. >> it's like i'm packed and ready to go. >> and the master is saying wait a minute. >> that's a bad relationship. >> did answer your question? let me think of another ep of any moment. >> what about when alice gave him the money?

>> yet. there are some interesting nuggets throughout the interviews. there was one time, alex gilliam, the person who called her owner mr., not master. she actually gave him money after the civil war ended. talk about irony. after the civil war ended. the owner was cash-strapped, and she had given him money to help him pay for things. so things really were reversed. things aren't as -- that period has not been studied beyond what we have in the history books. but things aren't as black and white and clear-cut. >> and what was the reason she did that? her children said? wasn't more along the lines of that's just how life is? >> yes. that's true. >> question? >> i have two questions. the first one would be preparations have you made for the information that you elected

with all the data? what do you do with it? and do you have any future plans for "sugar of the crop" doing other things, maybe a film? stageplay? just trying to do some type of, you know, city to city, state to state to really get the word out about us being able to retract our history and all that kind of stuff, you know. do you have anything in the works for that? >> i don't, but maybe we can talk later. maybe i can recruit you later to sign all those contracts because i still have my credit card bill today. to pay. what i found is the interviews i have done a very informal. it was very, very informal. there was no rhyme or reason or discussion. and i think it would be great to try and collect everything on a database. right now all the tapes are in a

locked container in my closet. i contacted columbia university, about seeing having archived there and hopefully that will work out. but i do think i need to go somewhere. i also think i need, i just came back from waterline where interviewed people who still knew of people who are still alive. president obama mentioned in cooper in his and noggle speech. i didn't speak to her. so there are people still out there that i have not found or mentioned. so we definitely need to try and document all of them now. the one thing i found very fascinating with spielberg's movie, schindler's list, all of the holocaust survivors came in the woodworking kind of said i'm a survivor, record my store. so we might do something similar to the. >> that would be a great documentary. we have more questions and then we're going on.

>> you talked about how you kind of centered on the idea of a national apology and reparations. and in your research, i wonder now that you've come to to this conclusion, do you think that your information or your position, the stories that you have told will be a source of support against the idea of a reparations? >> i -- no, i don't think so. >> why? >> why my story would be against it? >> no, do you think it could be used as a source to discredit the notion that reparations is valid. because these descendents of slavery didn't suffer as a result of slavery. >> right. well, i think with regard to

reparations is based on the idea that we are owed something. and i don't think my stories take away from the fact that we are still owed. if you believe in reparations. and my story simply shows that because we weren't given anything, we didn't wait. but the argument still exists. the argument still exist. >> i think oftentimes the message of reparation has often been from the emotional when it really was an economic situation. it was a you people working for free. and in that you are still owed that. now, before we do this final, final wrap i do want to acknowledge, you are a special guest. we did not talk about it specifically, but there were in your story a lot of interracial relationships and families, which bears out what did you find, was it like a harmonious

relationship? wasn't like we really don't know them until now? >> right. right. like i said, the time period that i focus on, it's not as black and white as i expected. mr. thompson, who i mentioned in the very beginning, his cousin was a woman named billy odom. her father was next. and her father was born as a slave in kentucky. well, it was actually born in kentucky to a white woman, and the next boyfriend. in kentucky, when you are born of a white woman, because you always hear about, you know, mixed children are from a mix slave and a white master. but she was born of a white woman and a free, what we think is a -- >> mulatto. >> yes.

but in kentucky you had to go under under the age of five to become a servant. but to prevent her son from becoming an indentured servant, she set it up so that, and mr. thompson told me the story and mrs. odom told me the story, and i spent many hours with mr. thompson getting because it is kind of confusing. but she made sure that her son would not be sold as an indentured servant to the state and then go to his paternal grandfather, who was white. and the court records, she made sure that the paternal grandfather was white on slaves would raise him as part of the family. and that is in the record. so it is complicated. everything isn't as black and white as we think it is. as we were taught. and that goes into the idea, you know, putting aside the s. word,

you talk about husbands and wives, our own family isn't, you know, as perfect and is complicated. so that's also what i found in the interviews. >> we want to thank sana butler for this incredible journey. thank you for sharing with us. [applause] >> "sugar of the crop: my journey to find the children of slaves," any final words before we go? what do you want the world to know most of all? >> that the generation of freed slaves, they generally loved their children. that they put aside, and i said this before but i think it is very important, they put aside their experience to raise their families. and again, we focus so much on this generation and the horrors that took place, and we have yet to focus on -- through interviews, write, not through the wpa, but through interviews

how it turned out, and how they kids and when they are today. and i think it's beautiful to put aside terms and understand them in the way that we understand people. >> right. this is what it looks like when hope is the bird but now we have the audacity of hope. thank you all for coming. [applause]

>> paula kamen, who was iris chang? >> iris chang was most known for 1997 bestseller that was the book, "the rape of nanking," and it did huge thing to raise awareness about japanese atrocities during world war ii. and that was not only in nanking, but she wrote in great detail about the massacre there and it raised awareness about atrocities throughout asia. so it became a whole movement rather than just a book in the late '90s. >> was she a historian? >> she was both a historian and a journalist. so she didn't see them as mutually exclusive. so as historians are told, hers

was archived. she spent days and days buried in the national archives and other archives but then she also went out, confronted people face-to-face. so she used all those methods. >> where was she from? >> she was from urbana illinois. we actually met in college on the daily of imac, the university of illinois in the mid '80s. and we were friends since then. >> what kind of relationship did you have as friends? >> at first i didn't know what to make up her that she was always many steps ahead of me. there were very few internships and every time there was one she would get it, you know, before i even thought of applying to it she would have already gotten it. and that's how a lot people on the college paper thought of her, she was always so far ahead of us. she had the idea to write for "the new york times" as a u. of i correspondents. she called them up. and soon she had stores in the front section of new york times. and we are thinking who does that? didn't know what to make of her but then i saw, i was editor

there and i saw a real talent, backed up this incredible nerve. and i decided to try and in the later instead of seeing her as a rival. and through the years both of us wrote books and we were both sounding boards and she became a huge role model of what it meant to be a successful author. >> what happened to her? >> this is the reason i wrote the book because it was one of the most shocking things that i have ever experienced that she committed suicide, which seemed for no apparent reason in 2004 when she was 36 years old. and there were lots of rumors that were swirling everywhere that the right wing japanese had assassinated her. she had a lot of enemies. >> because of her book? >> yes, she was very vocal in criticizing their history books and their political leaders. there's also rumors that the u.s. was somehow behind it and

she was very active to get veterans of the bataan death march to sue japan for their enslavement and the state department was a so happy about that. but it turned out that she fit a lot of patterns of manic depressive illness, or bipolar disorder that got worse after she had her son, which often happens with women. and was exacerbated by a lot of real pressures that were all around her. >> so what was your last conversation with her? >> she called me just -- just three days before she killed herself and that was the first time i sensed something was very seriously wrong. now i realize it was a goodbye call. and then it just seemed like a strange, bizarre, bizarre thing and i didn't know what you make of it. but that was the first time i

had ever noticed her as really depressed and disconnected from reality. she was so depressed it was hard to get the words out. and in retrospect, she was explaining to me why she was about to do this. she talked about a lot of guilt in ways she had racer son. she talked about a lot of fears that she had, and said that i had been a good friend to her. yeah, it was a very, very disturbing but as disturbing as it was i didn't think that her life would end a few days later. >> so what did you find about iris chang? >> that she was very, very complex. that there was a lot behind this near perfection that all of us saw her as having the absolute perfect life, we think the perfect person. we didn't want to even share our problems with her thinking that she wouldn't understand having problems, you know, what that was like.

she was incredibly driven and that's what helped her to uncover all of these real tough part of history and atrocities in japan. i think with a mental illness she didn't know when to stop, and she didn't know about any kind of limits that she had. so she was an inspiration in her drive, but was ultimately a weakness. and not getting treated for the mental illness, you know, she refused to accept that she had it. >> is there a stigmatism with mental illness and asian-americans? >> yes, in every culture but in asian culture it's really, really extreme that asians are much less likely to get treated with therapy or medication. and when they do go for treatment, it is usually at the 11th hour when they are already at the psychotic stage, you know, when it is really hard to reverse what happened.

so that's what happened was iris, she didn't get treatment or she did see a psychiatrist until two weeks before her death. and that was just because her family forced her. she wasn't compliant with him when he was telling her what you. >> what changes have you made in your life because of iris chang's suicide? >> no one has ever asked me that before. i -- i appreciate living -- a lot of it is going. i appreciate living in the mont. i am kind of in my second child in a several months, and just -- looking toward the lighter things in life, but enjoying the. i mean, i am going to return to write about tough topics, but just know my limits and it's okay to take time off and not be so driven, you know, every second of a. >> besides this book what other